Sunday the 29th?

Hi.

Christian and I would be happy to go to Ashhurst mtg this week end, is anyone else interested? if Chris can't make it i may host something.

I.m keen for Sunday, Sam's keeen too me thinks

sweet as, peter has said he is keen, along with someone else from the bad cave Christian invited, unfortunately we forgot his name. And hopefully Max can catch a ride out, maybe with Sam or peter, or perhaps even me if I go to his place for Saturday night.

I think peter may have mentioned someone else who would come with him, but i can't really remember.

Well, Max can get a ride out with me on Sunday. but i kinda need someone to give him a ride back to town.

either
Sam, or peter would probably work so if Chris brought Sam out he could take Sam and Max back. also there's a friend of Max's here that might come too and the situation would be the same but with 2 people instead of 1. we might be looking at quite a big turnout.

Just finished a 10 hour shift so not sure i'll be able to make it without a ride sorry

see you at not long after 130

I was just looking at the rules regarding the stack and was interested to see that an opponent can't respond to a creature coming into play because the opponent doesn't have priority.

This seems to be something that we have done all the time? that is 'responding to a creature coming into play'.
Have we got it wrong?

Just respond to the creature spell. Or doesn't the creature enter the battle field, priority goes around the table?

yes you can respond to the casting of the spell e.g. with counterspell,
but you can't respond to the spell resolving (creature coming into play) e.g. with a doomblade.
because prority goes back to the caster.

(for simplicity i'm talking about two player)

In that case, I would have been correct on Sunday.
My creature spell resolved uncountered, and then as the active player with priority, I could activate the ability of my creature, before any other player could play a spell/ability, regardless of whether it was an instant/split-second spell.

that maywell have been the case but i'm not sure where priority goes if the creature has a triggered ability i.e. coming into play, you will need to chk it out.

i'd be interested in understanding it!

well when the creature comes into play the ability triggers, goes on the stack and priority moves around the players, giving everyone a chance to respond i.e. with ''counter target triggered ability'' or ''return my creature to my hand to save it from adverse affects''.

but u never doom blade a creature by responding to it being cast (entering the battlefield) because by casting your kill spell in response technically u cast your kill spell before the creature even exists. u have to respond to something else, or wait for priority. i.e. end of the main phase, beginning of combat phase.

thats exactly my point.

if a creature has no 'come into play triggers' then i dont believe players can respond to it coming into play like we have often done in the past.

Priority immediately returns to the active player and he is free to play another spell (or land etc) before something goes on the stack and priority returns to one of the opponents allowing them to cast an instant.

i'd like to hear William's view on this?

Priority always goes clockwise from the active player (ie, the player who's turn it currently is).

Chris wrote:

if a creature has no 'come into play triggers' then i dont believe players can respond to it coming into play like we have often done in the past.

Chris is correct here - If there are no triggered abilities, then priority returns to the active player, where it stays until the active player does something or the phase ends. If there are triggered abilities they go on the stack clockwise from the active player, and then resolve (active player's abilities resolving last).

However practically this doesn't actually change anything, as the other players can respond by attempting to kill the creature when you end a phase, cast a spell or activate an ability. You are guaranteed to be doing one of those things after playing the creature, so there isn't any meaningful effect on gameplay by Doom Blading the creature right after it comes into play instead of waiting for something to happen so you get priority.

It is impossible to kill the creature in this way (Doom Blade or similar) before it has actually entered the battlefield, so comes into play triggers will always go onto the stack (but may not necessarily resolve), and the controller will always have a window of opportunity to activate abilities on the creature.

shunter wrote:

as the active player with priority, I could activate the ability of my creature, before any other player could play a spell/ability

This is correct, provided you cast the creature on your turn. If you cast it on another player's turn, they are the active player and get priority. You can activate abilities in response to others trying to remove your creature anyway. They can respond to the ability going on the stack and kill your creature in response, but the ability will still resolve if it has valid targets.

Even if you didn't have priority first, you'd be able to respond to someone attempting to kill the creature by using its ability.

An interesting thing to note is that it also affects the order things that trigger on upkeeps resolve - They go on the stack clockwise, active player first, which means that the current player's effects always resolve last.

thanks William but(?)

Rincewind wrote:

However practically this doesn't actually change anything, as the other players can respond by attempting to kill the creature when you end a phase, cast a spell or activate an ability.

Maybe not; as in the past it may have prevented the active player from playing a land, tapping it, and doing somehing in response (e.g. to the Doomblade). Whereas the active player has every right to play a sorcery at this point if the non-active player had played his instant  spell out of turn then the active player would not have been able to play his sorcery in response. ...so this could  potentially significantly alter the outcome of events.

it also puts the non-actice player to disadvantage because the onus should be on the active player to play another spell. If this is a 2nd creature then the non-active player would be deprived an opportunity to decide which creature to doomblade.....

In regard to the land, I guess that depends whether lands can be played at instant speed? and do they use the stack?

Lands cannot be played at instant speed and do not use the stack.

How often have any of us had sorceries we wanted to play right after a creature? Most of the sorceries people play at the library are Wrath of God, so the situation you're describing isn't one we see on a regular basis.

In some situations it might make playing auras slightly less appealing than before, that is probably about it.

Of course now we know we can play it the proper way, but I can't see this massively changing anything, unless you have some deck you've been waiting to bring out based on this   

Its not just sorceries, it's all spells that are affected.

And now you have pointed out that it is lands as well,and therefore anything else that land would facilitate.

I would disagree and still say this development is extremely significant.

what?... this rule is trivial. just play magic the way we always have keeping in mind a creature entering the battlefield is something you can't respond to. Sometimes priority will be called into order but most of the time it's trivial. just respond to spells and abilities and you will be able to play the same way we always have.

on another note, i posted in Card trading and no one has replied, i am wondering if anyone bothers to scroll down the forum any more. i'd appreciate it if you guys could help me find the cards i need as i would for you.

I read it Jonathan, but didn't see any point in replying to say I don't have spare copies of the cards you're after

After reading the comp rules, this is my understanding of priority in situations you guys are talking about..


Playing land is a special action. It can only be done when you have priority, when the stack is empty, when it is your turn, and can only be done once each turn. It isn't "instant" or "sorcery speed" or anything like that because it doesn't use the stack, and isn't considered casting a spell.

Tapping land is a mana ability. Mana abilities are not put on the stack, and cannot be responded to by other players (however, triggered abilities related to someone gaining mana or tapping land will go off immediately).

If nobody counters a creature card, it enters the battlefield. Players cannot respond to it entering the battlefield, and all triggered abilities related to "enters the battlefield" go off immediately.

The active player always has priority when the stack is emptied. Therefore, after the original spell/ability on the stack is resolved (eg. a creature coming into play) the active player has the first opportunity to act.

Enters the battlefield triggered abilities do use the stack:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5214265

Players can respond to those triggered abilities. All triggered abilities that aren't mana abilities use the stack, and can be responded to.

If a creature enters the battlefield, and someone else has a triggered ability that says "when a creature enters the battlefield..." does this go onto the stack immediately, or does the active player have priority to cast a spell / use an ability first?

Never mind..

All triggered abilities go on the stack, then priority returns to the active player.

I was curious if non-active players could steal priority though triggered abilities, but this isn't the case from how I understand the rules..

So there is literally no way someone could have circumvented Sam's activated ability, even with a split-second spell.

It is possible to respond to activated abilities by countering them. If there is a triggered or activated ability on the stack, players get priority and a chance to respond to it before it resolves.

Thanks to William and Christiian for your constructive comments, its important to gain a better understanding of these rules (which are by no means trivial) to avoid and resolve disputes such as that which occurred on Sunday.

Its also intersting to see that on occasions splitsecond can be countered by abilities that dont use the stack such as when Voidmage Apprentice is unmorphed, or when Counterbalance or Linvala are in play.